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Podcast-In this episode we break down the issue of problems with pre 2006 Dyna’s & 1999-2006 spring loaded cam chain followers in Harley Davidson twin cam motors. The chain tensioning system in these motors uses plastic “shoes” riding on the cam chains that wear out. We here at Law Abiding Biker all agree that there is no real concern with the newer post 2006 motors and is limited to the years stated. Although we are pro Harley Davidson, this was a complete design failure and the company should have done a better job taking care of owners of the affected years in our opinion. You really need to listen in to this podcast episode to get all the facts and information.
Harley damaged cam chain tensioner
What is happening on the affected years? The plastic spring loaded cam chain follower fails & it shreds plastic material that fouls the rotary gear oil pump cutting off oil flow to the engine. The problem is that many are experiencing failures at many different mileages, so it is hard to predict. Additionally, riders likely will not hear anything going wrong. The only way to check the status of your cam chain followers is to dig in and inspect them. If you are going to be in there for that then we suggest to just fix the problem permanently & we will tell you how.
What did Harley do to fix the problem on the newer motors? On the 2007 and later motors, hydraulic cam chain followers are now used to get rid of the stiff spring that put too much pressure on the followers rubbing on the cam chain. Some believe that the problem still exists even with the new hydraulic cam chain followers, but we are not seeing that at all.
Our opinion is that if you have an affected model that you take action as soon as you can and avoid the impending problem all together since you can't predict when it will happen.
S&S Cycle Complete Gear Drive 510G Camshaft Kit
The Fix #1 (Our 1st Choice):
Our suggestion is for you to get rid of the chain system entirely and switch to gear driven cams for the listed years. There are companies making aftermarket kits for this and without labor they cost around $750. The best thing is that you will get upgraded cams on top of the rest of the upgrade kit, thus more performance. If you appreciate this Free content consider using our 2 Wheel Parts Supply Affiliate Link to purchase any of these kits (S&S Cycle Complete Gear Drive 510G Camshaft Kit) & help support us.
Harley Davidson upgrade/fix kit
The Fix #2 (Our 2nd Choice):
Harley Davidson also sells an upgrade/fix kit for around $499 (example) without labor costs. Again, we believe that Harley Davidson should not be selling a “fix it” kit when it was their design problem in the first place, but it is what you may be stuck with. This HD kit does not change it to a gear driven system & you don't get upgraded cams. Instead, it comes with hydraulic cam chain tensioner and high-flow oil pump. Harley says that the high-flow oil pump provides increased oil pressure at high-operating temperatures. It changes the chain tensioner from spring to hydraulic. This is the standard fix that Harley dealerships will give you unless you want to go with the gear driven system and cams, which is again our first suggestion depending on you budget of course.
Complete Gear Drive Kit Picture (installed)
Harley cam chain tensioner (twin cam)(backside)
Email that spawned this episode:
Subject: Plastic Shoes with cam chains
- Marc Littell of East Tennessee
First just wanted to say thanks for the great content you guys put out. I commute a couple hours to work on an airplane and the Law Abiding Biker Podcast is always playing. I am new to Harley's, I've had a few older metrics and always have had dirt bikes, and the service video was great inspiration in completing the service. It really is simple to complete after watching you guys tackle it on the video.
I have read about a potential problem with the plastic shoes associated with the cam chains. Do you have any info on this issue? This is a small quote from an article on JP Cycles. “The problem is the design of the cam chain system. It uses plastic “shoes” riding on the cam chains that can (and do) wear out. Harley has made some changes in later model bikes, but even with the new hydraulic tensioning system, it is not a true fix.”
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Link to article he is referring to
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He is referring to our #1 Rated Harley Davidson Routine Oil Change & Maintenance Video! Tons of bikers around the world are saving money doing their own maintenance & feeling the pure satisfaction of working on their own motorcycle.
Justin (Oscar's) Original Email Response:
I am very familiar with your question, I rode a 2006 Ultra Classic for three years. Without knowing what you are riding I can tell you this:
1999-2006 Harley Davidson introduced the Twin Cam motor. In order to run the valve train Harley went to a cam chain tensioner set up utilizing a spring loaded shoe putting pressure on the cam chain with push rods. They also used, and I can' remember the technical name of the chain, an older chain design. Indeed the cam chain shoes would wear out partly because of the shoe and partly because of the chain. Harley recommended getting them checked between 35 and 40K miles. Problem is they could give out ANY time and were not covered under warranty. Generally when they go they break up and get sucked up into the oil pump. This disrupts the oil flow and tells the computer the oil level is low. This can shut the bike down. I had not heard of any major engine problems as a result but you would need a new oil pump and new cam shoes.
The inspection and replacement of the inner shoe is expensive and involves removing the oil pump and cam, the outer one shoe is easier but you have to check both of them. Our dealership wanted $400 just to inspect the shoes, which they wouldn't do because they said if they get that far into it they might as well just replace them. I thought, why would I replace a faulty product with new faulty products.
Harley, of course, made a fairly expensive upgrade including a new oil pump and hydraulic cam chain tensioners run by the engine oil and re-designed shoes. They also went to a new style chain. The new design is very reliable and as of like 2009 I haven't heard of any problems with them. Of course the upgraded kit was like $400 in parts and $400 to install.
I went with a gear drive cam in my 2006. More specifically I went with the S&S 510 gear drive. This eliminates the cam chains entirely and actually produces a little more horsepower by make the valve timing more accurate. It was not noisy and the 510 cam produced awesome power with the stock 88ci motor. It was even better when I went up to the 95ci. Parts and labor was around $1500.00 which included new push rods and lifters, which is usually necessary.
Personally, in those year bikes, I would do the gear drive cam if you plan on keeping your bike for a while. Some guys rode those year bikes and never had a problem. Other's had problems at unexpected times. Harley will tell you that if you are going to replace the shoes or do the upgrade you might as well do new cams, its no more in labor because the cam chest is already open, just the price of parts and a lifetime of reliability if you go gear drive.
If you have any more questions let me know, I researched the various cams, cam timing and cam lift as well as gear vs chain drive.
Other Email Answered:
- Scott Byram of Austin, TX
I watched your video on changing all the fluids. I want to do this on my own and not rely on a dealership, at least for this basic stuff. So from watching the video, its possible to change all three fluids with the bike on the kick stand. I have been told the bike should be upright when changing fluids but from the video, leaving the bike on the stand works fine? Did I get some bad information that the bike should be upright when changing fluids.
He is referring to our #1 Rated Harley Davidson Routine Oil Change & Maintenance Video! Tons of bikers around the world are saving money doing their own maintenance & feeling the pure satisfaction of working on their own motorcycle.
My Original Email Response:
So, it is not critical to have the bike level. Here is the deal: Do everything on the kickstand if you like. If you feel so inclined and after everything seems to have been drained, you can stand the bike up level for 15-30 seconds and get the last little bit out. But, at the end of the day that is just going the extra mile. That is why you might hear someone say that the bike “has to be level”.
Honestly, sometimes I do that if I remember, but at the end of the day it is not critical.
I have a 2005 softail deluxe with 88ci. It has 19000 miles on it what do you think I need to do to it?
That’s a tough question to answer because of personal preferences. I would always suggest an intake, pipes, and a fuel management system. I would also make sure all of the routine maintenence items are completed. ~Lurch
Do it I have a 05 E Glide. 35000 miles, looking at about 2k after chain tensioner failure. Like he said no warning …. just no oil pressure and loud knocking ….
Easy to check inner tensioner with a dental mirror
Thanks for this article. Was just looking at a 2006 Deluxe at a dealership where I have bought 2 new bikes in the past. Service department told me about this plastic shoe issue with the cam on the 2006. Glad he did. Plus the great info here. Think I might let this one slide.
I have a 2000 fxst and had to put a hydraulic cam in at a cost of over 2400 bucks
Hello Shane, I have the same bike, 24K miles with no engine work, only a pipe and carb. I ride moderately but not too gentle. I inspected the tensioners and they appear near perfect. I’m curious, am I just lucky , or was your bike modified and driven hard. Did the tensioner break ?How many miles ? or did you just do it as preventative. Thanks- Tony
Listen in to the Podcast episode Tony. We reveal that and much more on this issue.
Fix it. My road king had 19000 miles when it happened and I am looking at $1900.00 to fix it now.
Check it
ride it and have fun.
I purchased the 510g kit but the timing marls to do line up as the instructions show. They were pressed in correctly and lined up behind the plate (cams) but the gears on the outsides are not lined up when the cylinder is at tdc
Wow and thanks for sharing Rob.
your cams may have a different timing set up by design; 4 degree for example, not uncommon
Thanks for the input Tony. Ride Safe!
I have 2 Harleys. A 2000 E Glide w/ 88” and a 2014 Limited with a 103”.
It is crucial to change/update these stock tensioners. I know of numerous individuals who have lost their whole motor. I personally had mine changed to the S&E hydraulic tensioners and larger oil pump and my 2000 E glide has never ran so awesome. Also added a mild cam at the same time and wow what a difference. I mostly ride my old 2000 E Glide to commute or only when the 2014 is getting serviced. The 2000 I service myself. But the 2014 is under a ESP and I don’t want any issues if I have an issue. I promise you, you won’t regret updating your cam chain tensioners. I did it at 27k miles. And the outer tensioner showed little wear. But the inner was about to shred apart. They even found little yellow pieces in my oil. I got really lucky. Don’t wait!!! And yes. It angers me greatly we have to pay for Harleys engineering failures. But Harley Davidson is a way of life, a Community and my 3 Harleys have saved my life. Riding clears the mind. They have proven scientifically that your blood pressure reduces greatly while riding! Lol.
Good luck!
Hey Ken, I agree with the blood pressure benefit! I have an ’06 Deluxe and did the Screaming Eagle cam chest upgrade 2 months ago at 31000 miles. Both tensioners looked like they were barely touched, no debris anywhere in the chest or in the original oil pump. The tech was very surprised! Anyway, in the 15 years I’ve owned this bike it has never run hot and it has had the usual stuff thrown at it (Oil cooler, 95″ big bore kit, SE 204 cams, pipes, intake, dyno). However, since this cam chest upgrade the seat gets so hot I almost can’t stand it. Not sure if it’s from a poorly installed kit, bad O-ring that may be leaking and causing a sumping issue, or something else. Of course the tech says this is normal, but I know my bike and this isn’t normal at all! I hate the thought of disassembling the chest again, but I may have no choice. Yes, my blood pressure is up…
This information is awesome. I am now paranoid, however. Having bought my first Harley (brand new 2016 Heritage Softail Classic) and financing over $20,000 by the time I was done…. I am now worried about this problem. Everything I read says years up to 2007. Is my bike “infected”??
Has Harley resolved this issue in the newer 103 model engines for 2016? Please help! I love my bike but I am now worried I should have looked closer at the new Indian Vintage. 🙁
I ride a lot, almost 600 miles a week. I appreciate any information on my 2016 Heritage Classic!
-Haugg.
Your absolutely fine Ed. We ride a ton and those issues are long gone from Harley. Solid bike you have. I have the 103 in my 2014 Street Glide. Solid bike and motor……..Run the piss out of it Ed and put your mind at ease. It’ll keep making you smile for a long time to come.
~ Ryan Urlacher
I have a 2003 softail fat boy 88b motor.60.poo miles cam chain tensioners changed 40.000 miles now with 65.000 miles New cam chain tensioners got bike back it blowing oil out of intake lots of oil charts. Could the broken tensioners have got into the oil channels and blocked them. Also New filter breathers in rocker box. Still blowing oil to beat hell. My the way cylinders hold factory spec compression
It is a possibility the pieces broken pieces are causing the issues. That has been reported before.
Check the scavenging o ring on the oil pump
Hey guys,
Thanks for the effort invested in informing and protecting us small folks out here….the vulnerable and often blind consumers who are chasing the American Dream…. I’m finding conflicting information on whether the cam follower issue is actually resolved in the late model bikes. For example James Russel Publishing states: Note: But keep in mind that the crankshaft pinion shaft runout (the shaft will hop up & down motion) can not exceed 3-thousands of an inch otherwise the gears will not work. Also consider your riding style. If you like to ride hard the runout (unbalancing/misaligning crankshaft webs) can easily creep beyond .003″ and the gears will clash causing catastrophic havoc to the engine. There really is “no fix” for this Twin-Cam engine defect. Even the new hydraulic system still has chain tension shoes that will eventually wear out and if you don’t catch it in time, the shoes can disintegrate just like the old spring-tension system and cause the cam chain to slap against metal causing total engine failure, usually by clogging the oil pump with metal chips. And, what makes this runout situation worse? Harley-Davidson used to keep the crankshaft runout balanced to about 0.003″ but in the year 2011 to the current Twin-Cam engines the crankshafts leave the factory to allow as much as 0.012″ runout which is so huge you can’t even install a gear drive kit. This means the pinion shaft is wobbling wildly right out of the factory creating damaging vibrations to the valve train bearings, etc.
Can you guys comment on this?
Wow, the runout issue was not as big a deal overall but it did effect some bikes. The gear drive can set up is the best fix and yes runout could occur at high HP/TQ numbers in a race style setting. If you are racing and or running really high power then crank runout is probably not your first concern.
I would have no issue, and did not have any issue with a gear drive set up in my 2006 Ultra Classic and will do gear drives in my 2013 Limited probably next fall. Is the cam shoe problem still there with the 2009 and newer bikes, yes, but not to the great extent it was before.
We also did an episode on LAB-73-Harley Davidson Twin Cam Chain Tensioner Problem 1999-2006 | Are Other Years Affected?
https://www.lawabidingbiker.com/73/
Hope that helps.
~ Oscar
I have 2007 road King custom,110k miles cam chain tensioner they have a small Grove in the shoes but how long will they last. I have about two years before I change the bike let it ride or change them
Mike,
We’d suggest changing them.
~Lurch
Holy cow change them before you end up in the middle of nowhere
i was told by harley that putting gear drive cams is only possible if your within a certain clearance . it can’t be done when you have a ton of miles on the bike. hence hydraulic setup was my only choice.mine had two big chunks laying in the bottom.. they were toast.. anybody that has a bike with the old spring tensioners ,i could not recommend it more strongly,get them out.. your riding a bomb,a money bomb.. change them out like now..
Wow, the runout issue was not as big a deal overall but it did effect some bikes. The gear drive can set up is the best fix and yes runout could occur at high HP/TQ numbers in a race style setting. If you are racing and or running really high power then crank runout is probably not your first concern.
I would have no issue, and did not have any issue with a gear drive set up in my 2006 Ultra Classic and will do gear drives in my 2013 Limited probably next fall. Is the cam shoe problem still there with the 2009 and newer bikes, yes, but not to the great extent it was before.
We also did an episode on LAB-73-Harley Davidson Twin Cam Chain Tensioner Problem 1999-2006 | Are Other Years Affected?
https://www.lawabidingbiker.com/73/
Hope that helps.
~Lurch
2003 HD Electra Glide Classic. At my 34000 mile oil change we cut the dirty oil filter open and found tell tale signs of shoe disintegration. Installed an S&S 509 gear drive and ScScreaming Eagle high pressure oil pump after cracking open the cam chest. My bike has more torque and power…….and my 88 is now bullet proof. My buddy did the same mod on his 05 RK and now has 110,000 trouble free miles on his 88. Take the worry out of the situation. Go with gears.
Marshall,
Great info. Thank you for sharing your experience with the Law Abiding Biker community.
Ride Safe, Ride Often
~Lurch
Great call on going with gear drive, I also went with 509g instead of 510g because the 509g provides better low end/mid with same top, but either choice is is better than anything else. I’d point out that if using gear drive you do not need high volume pump and the high volume pump may cause increased oil from the rocker box breathers. The hydraulic followers need the extra oil pressure to operate while the spring followers and gear drive have no need for the extra pressure which has to resolve itself in some manner…and those rocker box exits are the path of least resistance.
I have just found out about this problem & am very worried. I have the 2004 Harley-davidson electraglide Classic FLHTCI. It only has 19,000 miles. Any suggestions on the best kit for me to purchase & any idea about costs parts & labor. Never even heard about this problem. Just had bike painted & put it back together, looks like a Street Glide &electraglide mix. Love my bike. Pissed at Harley about this. Randy Barger.
As I said just want to know the best kit to purchase. I ride pretty hard. On highways always 75 to 85 mph. 10 to 15 miles over most posted speed limits. Always keep all fluids changed every 3000 miles. Use synthetic fluids. Any advice will be helpful. Randy Barger.
The Fix #1 (Our 1st Choice):
Our suggestion is for you to get rid of the chain system entirely and switch to gear driven cams for the listed years. There are companies making aftermarket kits for this and without labor they cost around $750. The best thing is that you will get upgraded cams on top of the rest of the upgrade kit, thus more performance. If you appreciate this Free content consider using our 2 Wheel Parts Supply Affiliate Link to purchase any of these kits (S&S Cycle Complete Gear Drive 510G Camshaft Kit) & help support us.
The Fix #2 (Our 2nd Choice):
Harley Davidson also sells an upgrade/fix kit for around $499 (example) without labor costs. Again, we believe that Harley Davidson should not be selling a “fix it” kit when it was their design problem in the first place, but it is what you may be stuck with. This HD kit does not change it to a gear driven system & you don’t get upgraded cams. Instead, it comes with hydraulic cam chain tensioner and high-flow oil pump. Harley says that the high-flow oil pump provides increased oil pressure at high-operating temperatures. It changes the chain tensioner from spring to hydraulic. This is the standard fix that Harley dealerships will give you unless you want to go with the gear driven system and cams, which is again our first suggestion depending on you budget of course.
~Lurch
Ok,
I’m half way confused, I’ve had adjusters changed twice already 01 ultra classic before 46k miles. Well that’s what I was told when I bought it came with used adjusters. Looking at an 06 Ultra classic do they still have the same problem? thanks going forward.
Oh this is my first HD, ended up chains adjusters stator battery. So it wasn’t a good buy, Now looking for something either trading or out right buying something in maybe a street glide, Do I have to worry on those motors too?
Yup 1999 to 2006 has the chain tensioners to watch. So if you have a 2006, keep an eye out.
Just found an 09
what should I look out for on it.
Ultra Classic
Listen into the podcast and we get into detail!
All, you can run gear drive over the magical 0.003″ that everyone uses as the drop dead measurement. you just need to make sure that before you tighten the oil pump down and the camplate down to final torque that you rotate the engine over a couple of times with the oil pump and camplate bolts snug so everything can find its happy place due to the crankshaft run-out then tighten them down. is this approach 100% correct? No, does it work? Yes, but you will have a noisy valve train due to the excessive lash between the crank and cam gear. If you can feel a wobbly vibration in the handle bars and foot peg\floor boards when you wick on the throttle, guess what? your engine has really twisted the crankshaft. the real fix for a crankshaft with excessive run out is to rebuild engine and have crankshaft re-trued (if possible, I needed a new crank after a hard day hot rodding my high compression 95″) then welded so it will not twist in the future. How do I know this? I went through it on my 04 electraglide. But now it is a bullet proof 103″ full roller gear drive machine.
Good info will u Ans guests without charge?
We answer thousands of comments here, on YouTube, email, and on and on w/o a charge. Plus phone messages….hard for us to keep up
I have a 2004 Classic. It was my dad’s. He passed last October and left me his bike. He took it in yearly and had it serviced. It has almost 80000 miles on it. The cam chain tensioner broke and the outer gear broke in two. Couldn’t get it into the he hd shop til the 28th so my old man looked at it but it isn’t nothing like his 89 Springer and he doesn’t want to mess with it. What I don’t understand is why they wouldn’t check that out when he had it serviced. My dad was 77 years old. He’s always had a bike and used to work on his own but just couldn’t do it anymore. I can’t believe Harley didn’t make this problem right.
That sucks Lori. Really not cool
I have a 2004 Wide Glide with 21,000 – If I buy the S&S 510 Gear Drive Cam Kit, what else do I need?
Make sure and buy it from a reputable dealer. They can walk you through all the parts you’ll need. I don’t want to miss something.
The cam chain tensioner issue is a real problem. Why doesn’t somebody invent a bearing roller tensioner WHEEL to replace the SHOE? It would last forever, just like the Porsche 911 pressure fed cam chain tensioners they came out with in the mid 80″s.
Agree, it’s frustrating.
I have 2 Harleys 1 a 2001 standard softail (carb) with 2900 miles on it .. Bike number 2 a 2004 Springer with 18000 miles on it. Is this tensioner problem (plastic) something I have to worry about. I am 76 years old do about 4000 miles a year on the bikes or will the bikes outlive me and save me money. Many Thanks
Listen into the episode and we discuss it all Perry!! Ride safe ==> https://www.lawabidingbiker.com/73. Podcast episode #73
Thanks for the great article!
You’re very welcome. Glad it was helpful. There is much more information contained the audio podcast too. Just FYI.
Ride safe & Ride Often!
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I have a 2000 police roadking. I want to upgrade to a gear drive set up. I was told at a Harley dealership, that my roadking fuel injection is kind of outdated to dial in to hotter cams to make it run top notch. Was told fuel injection needs to be tuned to accept the gear drive set up
Why do you only get one chain in Harley’s hydraulic cam chain fix it kit?
Not sure. You know HD…..LOL
I have 2012 street glide, any problem info on the 103 cam chain tension, crank and oil pump etc. much appreciated. Thanx Bob
No problems. Good to go!
Frankly speaking, this is the reason why Harley gets so much vitriol these days from the sportbike and metric cruiser crowd. They’re basically on the same boat as other iconic brands like Louis Vuitton, American Girl or BMW, all of which developed a recognisable image yet often shoot themselves in the foot by focusing more on the mystique and brand appeal than on quality.
The gear drive system shows that Harley’s reasoning behind using cam chains (i.e. EPA noise regulations) is moot as they still sell the Sportster to this day, not to mention that chain-driven systems have been implemented before without any egregious issue.
I don’t like the choices here. Option 1 and 2 is out of pocket for the owner. A lot of money spent on a motor with no performance gain. I think Harley Davidson should be sued and a settlement should be setup for all those that own one of these bean counter catastrophes.
I’m looking at a 2002 FLSTFI Fat Boy with less than 5K miles- it’s a beautiful bike, but of course this article makes me wonder if I should pass on it. To put it simply, would you pass on a gorgeous low mileage 2002 Fat Boy because of this issue, or try to dicker down the price based on this info? And, if you purchased the bike, would you rush to the gear drive system, or enjoy the bike and wait for signs of trouble? I’m inclined to do the latter- get the bike for the best price and enjoy it, having knowledge of a fix that might be in the future. Then again, being its very low miles, maybe better to fix the issue now for about a grand, before the cams, crank and bearings have suffered much wear. You know tearing down an older engine usually means rebuilding it completely… whaddaya think?
Ride it for a while knowing that at some point you should take care of the issue before it happens.
That’s what I thought with my 99 wideglide at 53000ks and the shoes when I checked looked pretty good only slightly worn .@57000 one of the cam bearings collapsed luckily in the cam chest and not the inner crank case ones and I was close to home.what a scary sound though.Have it apart now and contemplating which way to go .I’ll have to do Arun out test to see if I can fit the gear drive.I was always going to look at a cam upgrade so now is the time.Ibelieve the crank on the 99 to 02 were still put together properly (ie not just pressed together) so I am hoping the run out is within specks.
Came across your podcast…great info! I own an 02 FLSTF with 30k. I knew early on about the bearing issue for the TC88, and I was told my bike was not effected. However, I was NOT aware of this issue until this year when I did some maintenance on the bike, and a fellow co-worker told me about it.
Nonetheless, I would like to upgrade to either Kit #1 or #2, but was advised that the direct gear route has two issues: one being the crankshaft has to be within spec to avoid wobble of the gears. And two, if there ever is an issue with the gears not correctly meshing, it would cause more damage to the crankshaft/flywheel etc. further down the line?? Where at least the chain route will give, and cause LESS damage if it goes?? Either way sounds like it’s a crap shoot. Kit 2 would seem like a more “reasonable” upgrade fix at this point. What are your thoughts?
If your spring followers fail it WILL destroy your engine. If the gear drive fails it WILL destroy your engine. Unless you are drag racing the runnout can be more than .003. If you want a real fix and have the money, the 2002 crank is the last solid crank, use it with gear drive and do whatever you want, it’ll out last you and whomever you leave it to.
BMW is very high-tolerance design! Precision engineering–complete opposite of Harley. They legit require specific fluids.
There’s a reason you take BMW to the dealership. I’m not saying it’s impossible to do BMW stuff yourself BUT it may be foolish if you are a numbskull.
This excludes their 300cc engine which is not actually made in Germany. Teehee!
I have a 2007 Roadking Classic with 56 K KM (34.800 miles). What do you think. Have I replace the tensioner. Is it rght that I have the hydraulic chain tensioner?
Thanks from Germany
Andy
I have an 05 dyna low rider I put a new cam tensioner in it and updated hydraulic oil pump. Since then my oil cap likes to blow off and higher speeds. Or whenever it feels like it…haven’t driven it much since because it causes a mess. What could be the issue? How can I fix it? Less oil slightly?
Mindy,
It’s possible there is too much oil in it. You could also have an issue with the breather tubes. They could be pinched and not allowing for excess pressure to be released, in turn, popping the oil cap.
Ride Safe & Ride Often!
~ Matt Couchman
Law Abiding Biker™ Team
Helping & connecting as many bikers as we can worldwide!
So, a 2006 Street Glide w/2600 miles is gonna need some serious work despite the low mileage?
I purchased a 99 wide glide with 10000 miles on it I now have about 12500 last week i felt a vibration with in 50 miles i developed a knock sounds like the front jug I am not sure what oil presser i have (no gauge) although the oil light never came on my check engine light did i shut the engine down as soon as i heard the knock any idea
I have a 2004 Ultra Classic Electra Glide wondering 51,000 miles can I go gear to gear
I listened to your pod cast and it was clear that LAB folks are not clear relative to the manufacturing processes. The problem with the Cam tensioner shoe is not design related, its Supplier, Distribution, Service and Vehicle Owner related.
——-
When Harley designed the cam chain tensioner shoe (or had its supplier design it), it validation tested the suppliers production shoe components at xxx:xx hours of operation, in order to assure it would hold up in the field. (such validation testing is normal). 1999 to 2006 is a 7 year manufacturing run of product. During that time HD would have been working with its suppliers to reduce costs (yes all manufactures do this and for every component on the vehicle).
Since the failure of the tensioner shoe is sporadic (lots of variation in the frequency of failure), then its clear as a Quality Engineer that the cause is most likely relative to three things.
1- The supplier was outsourcing a small portion of its manufacturing to a sub-supplier. The supplier was only required to provide HD with a level 1 PSW (PPAP Submission), when it outsourced the parts. Therefore the supplier took a risk and did not validate its sub-suppliers component (yes this happens and more often than you think). If, the supplier had changed the tensioner shoe construct across the board, then every single vehicle would have experienced such failure (That was not the case).
2- Service industry and Owners used lubrication which unknowingly was incompatible with the outsourced component. Resulting in its early failure. Further, climatic conditions of the location of the vehicle might also contribute to early failure (Hot South VS Cool North). These explain the wide variation experienced in component failure frequency (2k VS 20K for example).
3- Harley probably was sourcing the tensioner shoes form a well known, historically trusted supplier, who was most likely only required to provide a level 1 PSW under HD PPAP requirements. The supplier might have therefore only verified the sub-suppliers component opposed to validating it through testing. At that point HD became aware of the failure and its cause, it could have had low volume, contaminated inventory, all the way to its dealerships.
Instead of attempting to purge all of its inventory (a daunting task) Harley decided instead to address the issue of non-compliant components via Warranty, both normal warranty and good will warranty. This is a very common risk related decision among manufacturers where the issue is not safety related (involves NHTSA), and therefore it would not require a product recall.
Options for the consumer
At this point, there could remain suspect inventory of the old Pn at HD dealerships, so I would say using that source for this part is a risk.
Aftermarket manufacturers who have validation tested their components would be a viable source for the original design. I wouldn’t use components from manufacturers who outsource from China or third world countries as their quality is known to be inconsistent.
Surety in addressing the issue completely, comes from those revised designs where the wearing component supplier is controlled, or the design of the tensioner assembly is either eliminated or replaced by a different approach (such as the HD hydraulic design) .
I would say at this point, HD will not allow the supplier of the current tensioner stock to outsource its production without a Level 3 PSW (PPAP submission). Therefore I wouldn’t have concerns about the updated HD hydraulic assembly, due to such supplier controls.
In the end there is probably a less than average chance that any owners of the twin cam engine would experience early failure of their cam tensioner shoes as long as they are maintaining their engine according to HD requirements, and have checked wear of both tensioners.
Checking the tensioners is always the reasonable thing to do as the tensioner shoes could be of different manufacturer for the inside and outside tensioner shoe. If one is changing their oil at 5k frequency, then an inspection of the tensioners at that point would not seem unreasonable, especially since the majority of those engines are past any hope of warranty.
I hope this explains how the complicated process of manufacturing vehicles can occasionally result in a failure that is not actually design related but which starts out as a supplier related issue. Further, it most likely was not the suppliers intention to place into the market a tensioner shoe which caused early failure. Most likely the supplier had confidence in its sub-supplier who was using inferior materials to construct the tensioner shoe.
To be clear…
This entire scenario is supposition on my part as a historical manufacturing quality engineer. I have no factual evidence from HD or its suppliers, the opinion is based on my experience with manufacturing quality issues and the data available in the aftermarket relative to this product failure.
My intention was not to discredit LAB media, or cast doubt upon the quality of Harley Davidson or any of its suppliers.
My intention was to simply provide an understanding into how typical manufacturing might handles such an issue. Further, my intention was to indicate that designs, especially new designs are not made haphazard, and are most always validation tested to assure they meet design intent. Therefore, I had reservation as to comments which indicated the issue to be a directly caused of design.